Philip Klass on the Cash-Landrum UFO case

Philip J. Klass (1919 – 2005) needs no introduction to most buffs, as he was the most prominent debunker of the UFO topic. Klass was an engineer by profession who went on to become the senior avionics editor of Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine. In the mid-1960s Klass became interested in UFOs from a skeptical point of view, and in 1976 was a founding member of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, known today as CSI, the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry. Klass became actively involved in the UFO topic, he attended conferences, was frequently quoted in the media, and wrote seven books on the subject. However he thought ufology was mostly filled with the gullible and frauds, promoters of pseudoscience.

In the early 1980s, the Cash-Landrum story was the biggest UFO case, so naturally it caught the interest of Klass. The American Philosophical Society was the beneficiary of Klass' files and it includes over 200 pages of his correspondence and news clippings and on the case. Klass wrote to investigator John F. Schuessler who considered the inquiries to be accusations, allegations, and harassment, so he seldom responded. However, the documentation shows Klass asked logical questions, no more invasive than if the case had been taken to court, just as Schuessler and the witnesses desired. Klass had a more mutually cordial relationship with other people involved, such as Lt. Col. George C. Sarran, who conducted the investigation for the DAIG and Peter A. Gersten, the "UFO Lawyer" in charge of the legal case for Cash and the Landrums.

Klass briefly discussed the Cash-Landrum case in his 1983 book, UFOs: The Public Deceived. He quoted how the editor of the MUFON Journal who had stated that “As a general principle, the more sensational the content of a UFO report is, the closer critical scrutiny it should receive.” Klass did not think that principle had been applied in this incident, and that John Schuessler’s investigation and MUFON’s reporting of it were derelict in not considering the possibility of it being a hoax:

The distinguishing feature of the Cash-Landrum case was the alleged physical after-effects, which should prompt a UFO investigator to begin by talking to the family physicians of the principals to determine if they had shown any of the symptoms... prior to the alleged incident... Although Schuessler has written several articles on the case over a two-year period, he has never included any details on the health of the two women prior to the alleged incident.

Klass was more direct about his opinion of the case in the 1985 HBO documentary, UFOs: What’s Going On?:

"I believe the story is a hoax. There is absolutely no evidence. The women’s story is supported only by the claim of Betty Cash that she had serious health problems after the alleged incident."

Shortly after the show aired, Christian Lambright interviewed witness Vickie Landrum at her home in Dayton Texas. She offered a rebuttal, "Phil Klass makes me sick."

A Conversation With Philip J. Klass

Klass continued to express his doubts about the case over the years. The following is the Cash-Landrum portion of a 1995 interview with him by Gayle Newsom. The AFU (Archives for the Unexplained) hosts the online collection of Houston Sky, “A Bimonthly Newsletter for Houston-Area MUFON Members and Others.” The entire interview can be found in Houston Sky No. 6, Aug./Sept. 1995.

Houston Sky No. 6, Aug./Sept. 1995

A Conversation With Philip J. Klass

Mutual UFO Network 26th Annual Symposium, Seattle, July 7 and 8, 1995 

by Gayle Nesom

GN: What do you think happened in the Cash-Landrum incident?

PK: Well, shortly after it happened, I wrote John Schuessler to ask when we could see a statement of the ladies’ doctors about their medical conditions before the incident. His response was, "Read my next MUFON paper." When the next MUFON paper came out, there was nothing about their previous health conditions. So I wrote him again, and then he replied that they considered that very personal and an invasion of privacy. I said, wait a minute... If their health was excellent before and they are willing to discuss their ill health now... If it had been the reverse and you said, well, here is a report on their health condition before, which shows they were in perfect health for their age, but it's an invasion of privacy to ask about their health now - that I could understand. So until such time as John Schuessler and the people involved agree to release the medical records of their condition before the incident, I just can't waste time with it. That's my position.

GN: But that's skirting the issue.

PK: Supposing I was to charge that after this interview with you I came down with AIDS, or excess cholesterol, and sued you. Would your lawyer ask to see my medical records before our meeting to find out if I had high cholesterol or AIDS previously? Wouldn't that be rational?

GN: I still think you are skirting the issue because you can discuss aspects of the case without knowing all about these women. And they weren't the only ones who saw the object. There were other reports...

PK: I even saw the UFO from Washington, D.C. I was out that night, and I could see it way down in Texas.

GN: Okay, next question.

PK: No, that is a fundamental. If their health condition was excellent, then there is absolutely no reason I can see not to release the records. But, number two: 15 years have gone by. If these ladies were irradiated, I would presume they died of leukemia long ago. Are they still alive?

GN: They are, but neither one has worked since. And Betty Cash has had breast and skin cancer.

PK: Betty Cash had complained about hair falling out. If she had taken chemotherapy before the incident, that could well be explained.

GN: What you're saying is that she may have had chemotherapy a month or week before the incident - or six months before? One of the problems I have is that you try to undermine witnesses without addressing other aspects of the case.

PK: Let me ask a personal question. Have you ever told a lie in your entire life?

GN: Sure.

PK: Do you know anyone who could honestly say they have never told a lie?

GN: Probably not.

PK: So how can you explain that Richard Nixon did not know anything about the Watergate break-in and the Republican involvement until a year afterward? At least, that's what he first said. Now, if you had asked me to explain how the President could not know - well it turned out he was not telling the truth. So, anyone who believes that human beings never­ - or almost never - tell falsehoods... But let's come back to the 22 helicopters. Under those circumstances, if the story of the incident happened as they described, I would very much doubt that anyone would take the time to count the number of the copters. Number two and I am a bit foggy on details - it has been 15 years but in one of their early appearances, Betty Cash or Vickie Landrum reported seeing Jesus Christ.*

GN: Betty Cash was a fundamentalist Christian. That was her only explanation of what it could have been.

PK: Was that what she said she saw, or not?

GN: That's the way she perceived it, and that's what she reported.

PK: So maybe Jesus was flying a flying saucer. Are you going to start saying, "Well, we've got to interpret, we've got to change what they said? so, if these people were irradiated from 10,000 yards, then the crew of the helicopters must have died of radiation long ago. They were much closer. And if 22 helicopters, each with a pilot and co-pilot - to say nothing of other crew - if four people from a helicopter squadron all died, surely we'd have heard of it.

I don't dismiss the possibility that there is intelligent life elsewhere and that they may have nuclear bombs. But if this is true and the government knows, then as of 1980, I would have expected all-out government effort to develop defenses against UFOs, especially in the form of some high-energy lasers. But I know from having followed such programs that there was no such effort. I can only assume that if this was an extraterrestrial nuclear weapon and if the government knew, then we have many, many derelict officials of that government and every government.

(End of excerpt.)

. . .

Vickie & Colby Landrum in a re-enactment, The UFO Experience, 1983 

*Phil Klass was wrong about Betty or Vickie "seeing Jesus Christ." The witnesses claimed they thought they were experiencing the Biblical Judgment Day. What Vickie Landrum actually reported was that when comforting young Colby, who was frightened by the UFO, "I got back in the car and took him in my arms. I told him it might be Jesus coming after us. If he saw a Man not to be afraid, He would be coming to carry us to a better place."

There were no claims of an actual Jesus sighting, and at no time did the ladies characterize the object as a "flying saucer." According to their story, once they saw the helicopters pursuing the UFO, they rationalized the object as a military aircraft project. Aside from that, the rest of Klass' concerns and criticism of the Cash-Landrum case remains valid.

There was certainly a lack of transparency in the Cash-Landrum case, and part of that was explained by Schuessler as the need to guard evidence that would be presented in the legal trial. The case was dismissed in 1986 due to lack of evidence and no trial was ever held. Even after that the case information was withheld from independent review, which has done much to preserve the mystery and controversy surrounding the case.

. . .

For more information on the incident, the investigation and its documentation, visit our page:

The Cash-Landrum UFO Case Document Collection

An Expert Opinion on the Cash-Landrum Copters

Back in March 2014, I gave a lecture via Skype to the MUFON group in Huntsville, Alabama on the Cash-Landrum UFO case. It was a great stroke of luck, when one of the attendees contacted me afterwards. Russ Hunter has a serious interest in UFOs, is a MUFON Field Investigator, and his military background is particularly relevant: 

“I flew CH and MH-47 aircraft for 16 of my 21 year career in the U.S. Army, with the last nearly 8 being flown as a Fully Mission Qualified (FMQ) Flight Lead, Senior Instructor pilot, in Task Force 160 at Ft Campbell KY. I wish to offer my services as a subject matter expert on the aircraft and the tactics, techniques, and procedures employed by the U.S. Army in general and the 160th and Special Operations in particular, as the implication of their possible/probable participation is unavoidable.”

Russ Hunter

 The CH-47 was they primary type helicopter identified in the Cash-Landrum incident, and the unit later known as Task Force 160 is the most compelling candidate to have flown them. Russ and I exchanged several emails and had several lengthy phone conversations where he explained and helped me with the practical details of how the helicopters operated. Here’s some highlights from my notes on our conversations: 

Russ was in the Night Stalkers from 1984-1991, and served with “plank holders,” original members of the unit that involved in Honey Badger. He confirmed historical details that I’d collected in BBL articles on Honey Badger and TF 158 were accurate, but added depth and insight on their formation and method of operation.

Honey Badger in 1980 was a proof of concept, following the Desert One fiasco, they assembled a force that could ready to work as needed. Once the unit was formed it never dissolved. It transformed into Night Stalkers and is active today. Task Force 160 was the aviation arm of special operations. A lot of the work they did was general counterterrorism. HQ is located at Ft. Campbell, KY, and they chiefly  flew Chinooks, Blackhawks and Little Birds. “Customers” were tiered. Different military branches (I took this to mean they were muscle, called in as needed.)

Helicopters: Operational Details
He discussed different CH-47 models, D, and MH-47-D, but I believe at least some of these variants came after the time period. CH-47s were modified in Lexington, KY. Helicopters have a limited combat radius. (Roughly 100 miles).  Rotor to rotor, the CH-47 is 101 feet long, a big fuel-hungry beast. CH-47s are very expensive to operate, burn a lot of fuel, about 200 gallons per hour.

The CH-47’s role was largely to ferry fuel, setting up FARPs (forward arming and refueling point) for other helicopters such as Blackhawks Hueys and Little Birds. The goal was to get them in and out as quickly as possible. He mentioned it took 25 minutes to pump. FARP extends range, but also involves more equipment, manpower and pre-planning. At the time of the events, the CH-47 was a workhorse, and a chief use was to deliver fuel. It was a bit later that they refined and developed its offensive capabilities.

What can 23 helicopters do that a few can’t? He was puzzled by the great number reported, and says it would have involved their entire inventory. CH-47s are fast and powerful. OH-6 Little Birds rarely fly together with them, and they’d be an unlikely match for the 2nd type reported. Doubts that Little Birds were involved, their primary role was to bring in snipers. Others were armed, but again seems unlikely for this role here.

Also, the number of helicopters reported was difficult for him to accept. An operation of just 12 Chinooks at one time and place is a big operation. He also has concerns about how low and slow they were flying. Each aspect creates problems with fuel consumption and other things. At 25 ft, flight is assisted by lift from rotor wash (hovering in-ground-effect HIGE). 85 ft high hovering requires much more power. Typical speed would be 100 MPH. Flying slower as described in the case is more difficult.

“I still am having trouble processing the relative speed of the helo's and UFO. If they were going slower than about 25kts they were below ETL (effective translational lift) and would be, for all intents and purposes ‘hovering’. That requires much more power than forward flight and had the added effect of the very intense rotor wash that I spoke of.”

Detection: Radar and Ground Witnesses

Russ thinks it is impossible that the helicopters could have avoided being detected on airport radar, or unseen by air traffic into it. Also, standard procedure is to clear flights with the local airport. It is possible, but unlikely they were low enough at all times to avoid radar detection.

I asked him about noise and detection by locals besides the main witnesses. He felt much more should have been seen and heard. A CH-47 makes a low, deep and loud  “buppata-buppata” sound, copters with tail rotors make more of a high-pitched buzz/whine.

Noise from helicopters, especially that many would rattle windows. The sound of even a few helicopters should have been widely noticed throughout the area. He’s puzzled by why the concentration of helicopter witnesses are all east of Lake Houston. Strange, because the UFO and copters were last seen heading west.

The sound carries and causes vibrations that you can feel in your body, particularly the air in your lungs. Also, a CH-47 flying at 80 or 90 feet would produce a tremendous amount of rotor wash and blow around anything on the ground, leaves etc. 

If the event happened as reported, he feels this must have been orchestrated, as the time involved to travel and catch the UFO from any base is prohibitive. Also,it seems unlikely the copters were there by chance, leaving a planned mission as the most plausible scenario. With the number involved, a support or recovery mission makes the most sense. The helicopters would have come in for a specific purpose. Mission protocol is typically is to get in and out. They don’t hold ground.

Low Visibility- Russ was puzzled how the witnesses could see the copters and count them. Helicopters are intended to be difficult to see at night. They are painted a very dull, flat color, virtually black. 

CARC paint (Chemical Agent Resistant Coating), dull color, “US Army” logo painted in slightly different shade. (1980 copters may not have used CARC, but otherwise the description of dark, non-reflective paint is accurate.) If the scenario in case is true, they probably would not have been flying with their position lights on. He feels it is unlikely they could have been clearly visible. 

Searchlights- Chinooks are equipped with two rotating lights near the nose, one white and the other an invisible pink light for NVG. He feels that a search like L.L. Walker describes is unlikely, as they would be using the pink invisible lights, and flying in groups of three. Formation flying requires primary attention to be focused on the lead aircraft.

Military Secrecy & UFOs

I commented that the large number of men involved makes it difficult to understand that why pilots, command or support crew have not talked about the case. He agrees that is troubling, but does feel that military discipline and loyalty is generally effective in preventing leaks. He cited Aldrich Ames as an example of how leaks might be punished.

The 160th was initially classified, centering on antiterrorist missions.  In 1983, they had several bad crashes related to the testing of the night vision equipment. Some of these events became fuel for accusation and speculation.
In the early 1980s, there was a great deal of speculation about the Night Stalkers and their activity, and accusations of conspiratorial activities like them faking crashes in order to provide cover stories for man killed in secret missions. 

When the 160th loosened up sharing details on their operations, the press lost interest once they were no longer secret. They were able to get back to business without the distractions.

Secret Military Facilities?

Secrecy: Hidden Assets?

Every CH-47 is accounted for (They are precious and in demand.) Equipment secrets are rare, most secrets are about mission profiles. He noted that he held a top secret clearance while part of the unit, but that many things are compartmentalized and shared with only those with a need to know. similar techniques and methods are used by civilian contractors working of the military., they only see a small piece of the puzzle unless it is necessary.

I asked Russ if we had secret underground bases full of armament like “the Pit” seen in G.I. Joe, but he said no. It was far more likely that equipment would be gathered from conventional bases and used on secret missions as needed. The military may have additional assets unknown to the public, but if so, it would have to be small in number.  
He thinks it is unlikely that there is unknown hardware in operation. Its more likely that if they wanted to camouflage their presence it might be done by flying commercial civilian vehicles. 

UFO Secrets

Russ said he’d never heard any UFO tales among the many war stories told of the unit.  He does believe that the US is keeping some UFO secrets, and that there was a UFO crash at Roswell and possibly two other ones in the modern era. He seems to think UFOs are tied to the history of the planet, and that it might relate to our pre-history, ancient civilizations, things long forgotten. As previously mentioned, Russ says that military discipline and loyalty is generally effective in preventing leaks, but there are other methods used as well. Government tactics to prevent UFOs from being exposed and taken seriously, are ridicule, intimidation and threats. 

I asked him if he had thoughts on what the UFO could have been if it were a military craft. He didn’t have a particular match in mind but speculated that it could be something like an atomic rocket engine or unmanned vehicle test. He knew of no specific candidate projects or vehicles to explain the UFO.

Phantoms?

Conclusions

I’d asked Russ to check with his contacts and see if anyone remembered flying in right time and place to be seen by the Cash-Landrum witnesses.
“My contact from Honey Badger does not believe that there were any incidents like this one that they were involved in. The other thing is that the Honey Badger training was conducted out of Norton AFB in AZ Which is a far piece from that town in TX.”

He doubts the military was involved in the Cash-Landrum case. Russ’ conclusion is that while the CH-47 matches the equipment used by his unit, the methods, techniques, behavior and reported details of the helicopters make it an unlikely match for an operation by Task Force 158. The number of helicopters involved is incredible. He is also at a loss to offer another plausible candidate. 

The one scenario he feels could explain their involvement is an incredible coincidence, them flying in the area as the UFO happened to be in distress.

“It is conceivable that the helo's were conducting training on a completely unrelated purpose and that the route just happened to coincide with the appearance of the object.”

Area 51, the CIA and Cold War UFOs: TD Barnes

In the 2010 Mirage Men book, Mark Pilkington discusses how Dr. Leon Davidson thought some UFO radar appearances were man-made, created for covert counterintelligence purposes. Pilkington discussed a CIA program that created radar "ghosts," Project Palladium, and how it might have been used to also spoof UFOs.

CIA Saucers?

TD Barnes, president of Roadrunners Internationale, was kind enough to answer some of my questions about his work at Area 51 and the purpose and capabilities of the CIA radar program known as Project Palladium.

TD Barnes

Q: What can you tell me about Project Palladium?

A: Gene Poteat was a fast-rising star in CIA who headed up the project. As you will see, the CIA Project OXCART at Area 51 was the purpose and need of Project Palladium to determine if we would be able to safely overfly Russia with the Mach 3 A-12 Blackbird intended to replace the U-2. We were very hot in the arms race at the time and didn't have a clue what the Russians were up to. 

Eugene Poteat and TD Barnes

Q: Was Palladium or another radar spoofing system used on China in the early 60s? I'm wondering if the "ghost planes" it could generate explain the story told in Above Top Secret by Timothy Good:

"Miles Copeland, former CIA organizer and intelligence officer, related an interesting story to me involving the Agency's attempt on one occasion to use fictional UFO sightings to spread disinformation. The purpose, in this case, was to 'dazzle' and intoxicate' the Chinese, who had themselves on several occasions fooled the CIA into sending teams to a desert in Sinkiang Province, West China, to search for nonexistent underground 'atomic energies.' The exercise took place in the early 1960s, Copeland told me, and involved launching fictional UFO sighting reports from many different areas. The project was headed by Desmond Fitzgerald of the Special Affairs Staff (who made a name for himself by inventing harebrained schemes for assassinating Fidel Castro). The UFO exercise was 'just to keep the Chinese off-balance and make them think we were doing things we weren't,' Copeland said."

A: I'm not sure the project name of the spoofing action in China. We were doing a lot U-2 overflights of China and losing a lot of planes in the process. I recall our training a group of Taiwan Chinese at Groom Lake in 1969 in a C-130E to drop motion and light sensors in the desert of northwest China to gather intelligence on the Chinese nuclear weapons development program. These were palletized sensors that looked like ordinary rocks that they dropped out of the back of a C-130 over Locknor and Zhang Sinzu area. 

"TALL KING" parabolic shaped radar antenna

Though I have no first-hand knowledge of UFO disinformation, I don't doubt for a minute that we did it. Our U-2 and Blackbird flights were UFO sightings that we really didn't want to occur, especially the CIA A-12 whose existence we wanted to keep secret. In the A-12 alone, we flew 2850 flights out of Area 51 and many of them were responsible for UFO sightings. The Air Force Bluebook investigators having to make up stories to cover for us caused a lot of the skepticism that exists today. Psy-Ops by all parties were a major component of the Cold War, but in our case we preferred to be undetected.  

A-12, CIA plane built by Lockheed.

Thanks to Mr. Barnes for answering my questions. For more information on him and his work, check out http://roadrunnersinternationale.com/

For more information on Project Palladium, see Gene Poteat's article, 
Stealth, Countermeasures and ELINT 1960-1975 pdf

Dr. J. Allen Hynek on the Cash-Landrum UFO case

Dr. J. Allen Hynek, Speaking on the Cash-Landrum UFO Close Encounter of the Second Kind

“Something sure as hell happened..."

Dr. Hynek, as seen in Spielberg's CE3K

Dr. J. Allen Hynek was only indirectly involved with the Cash-Landrum case, but he knew it well. From the beginning, John F. Schuessler was sending copies of his Project VISIT reports to Hynek’s Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS). In April 1981, Dr. Hynek’s protege, Allan Hendry, (CUFOS’ chief investigator) was contracted by the Fund for UFO Research (FUFOR) to investigate the incident. Further, Schuessler made his first lecture on the case at Hynek’s CUFOS symposium in September 1981. While Hynek himself did not investigate the case, he was very familiar with it. 

In 1981, just as the news of the Cash-Landrum story was spreading through mainstream media, Dr. Hynek was contacted by a Texas newspaper, the Corpus Christi Caller-Times for his comments on the case.

Corpus Christi Caller-Times September 13, 1981 p. 1A

Dr. J. Allen Hynek, founder of the Center for UFO Studies in Evanston, Ill., and the country's premier UFO investigator, termed the Dayton incident a “really crucial case,” because of the “absolutely unequivocal physical effects.”

“Something sure as hell happened: Those women didn’t pull out their hair and blind themselves," said Hynek. "The connection with the event is clear-cut. It's one-to-one. We have other cases, but rarely as clear-cut as this.”

“We are dealing with a real event , but we’re not sure if it’s a government exercise or a UFO sighting," said Hynek, who headed Project Blue Book, a U.S. Air Force study of UFOs from about 1948 to 1969. "There’s a lot of secret stuff going on that most people don’t know about.”

Hynek believes the women should file a lawsuit to compel disclosure.

Corpus Christi Caller-Times September 13, 1981 p. 1A

Texans Tell of Strange Encounter by Pamela Lyon

OMNI Magazine Interview with Dr. J. Allen Hynek

The year before he died, Dr. Hynek was interviewed at length by Pamela Weintraub of OMNI magazine, it appeared in the February 1985 issue. A number of UFO cases were discussed, and in a rather surprising way, the conversation turned to the Cash-Landrum case.

Dr. Hynek. Portrait from OMNI magazine

Omni: ... close encounters of the third kind might be anybody's fantasy.

Hynek: I can't disagree. That's why I'd like to focus most of my new research on close encounters of the second kind, where there are actual physical marks. -Perhaps a foreign consciousness is creating not just illusions but the real ship and the-real creatures as well. If they weren't physical creations, they couldn't leave traces. That's the importance of the close encounter of the second kind. Let us suppose that a very, very advanced civilization has, as a part of its everyday technology, the ability to project a thought form that, like a holographic image, temporarily assumes three-dimensional reality. This is just speculation of the wildest sort, but if the UFO phenomenon is doing anything, it's causing us to expand our imagination, to make us aware that this nice, cozy world we live in is only the world we see around us, not the sum total of our environment. 

Omni: Are there any close encounters of the second kind that you feel would particularly help to reveal this broader reality? 

Hynek: I'd like to get to the bottom of the Cash/Landrum affair. The story there concerns Betty Cash, Vicki Landrum. and Vicki's grandson Colby The three were coming back from a Bingo game when they saw a glowing triangle spewing flames above them in the sky. They stopped the car to watch the thing, and as it moved off, they reportedly saw about twenty-three helicopters escorting it out. After they got home there were all sorts of physiological effects: Their eyes swelled, their hair fell out, they developed blisters, they were nauseated and weak. The event completely altered their lives. 

Omni: What do you think was at the root? 

Hynek: My best guess is that they were exposed to some kind of microwave radiation. 

Space-shuttle engineer John Schuessler, who's investigating the case, is veering toward the idea that the three were exposed to a government device escorted by twenty-three helicopters, He's even helped Betty, Vicki, and Colby to institute a lawsuit against the government. But there's another side of all this: Where would twenty-three helicopters come from? First of all, it was Christmas week, and people at the bases said they would never conduct military exercises at a time like that. 

Omni: Certainly you can't be suggesting the possibility of twenty-three extraterrestrial helicopters? 

Hynek: No, that's preposterous. But perhaps Cash and the Landrums saw a holographic image of the helicopters. I could buy that more than I buy twenty-three solid, physical helicopters from some unknown base, when no baseman will admit seeing so many helicopters of that particular kind. 

Omni: Yet I really think that we're obliged to  consider the fact that some of these sightings are due to government craft. Recently, James E. Oberg traced many reports to secret Soviet satellite launchings. 

Hynek: Today, of course, such technology may account for many reports. From 1947 through 1955, however, almost none of the maneuvers ascribed to UFOs could have been duplicated with human technology. And even today, our technology can duplicate only part of the phenomenon. We still don't have craft that can hover and then take off at fantastic speed. 

Omni: As far as you know. But the government has been implicated in other ways as well. A group known as CAUS [Citizens Against UFO Secrecy] claims that the government has been orchestrating a massive cover-up of UFO information. They've recently invoked the Freedom of Information Act to obtain classified information. Have they found anything, and do you believe there's a government cover-up? 

Hynek: What can be covered up? You can cover up ignorance, embarrassment, sinister political acts. I myself don't see real evidence for a diabolical, Machiavellian cover-up. I do perceive a strong reluctance to share information with the public.

The conversation turns to other UFO topics. See this link for a PDF of the entire article:

Omni Magazine February 1985 interviewed by Pamela Weintraub.

More Details from UFO Witness Colby Landrum

"I can still see it very vividly in my mind."

Colby Landrum revisiting the road.

Continued from Cash-Landrum Witness, Colby Landrum: 2013 Interview

Martin Willis really scored when he managed to convince Colby Landrum to agree to be interviewed on Podcast UFO. Martin had already scheduled a show devoted to the Cash-Landrum case with Chris Lambright and me, but having Colby talk entirely changed the focus. Instead of a review of the case and analysis of recent findings, things shifted to strictly presenting eyewitness testimony. Colby was asked to recount events as he remembered them, leaving out what he may have heard later. He did a very good job of that and was frank about things he just didn’t remember. He was candid about its emotional impact on him and the pain and anger that he feels in association with the event. While he has no evidence, Colby feels that it was an object under military control and the U.S. government has ducked taking responsibility for the accident.

Colby describes the UFO

During the show, interviewers made a special effort to press him for further details about the appearance and flight characteristics of the UFO. The details were scant:

• Size: approximately 50 feet wide, 100 feet tall, roughly the size of the tank of a water tower
• Shape: diamond-shaped
• Color: orange and yellow (fiery)
• Texture: Not described, object radiated a glow
• Effects produced: flames coming out of the bottom, radiated heat
• Flight performance: floated
• Speed: not described, slow enough to be followed by helicopters

Colby said the helicopters, 23 double-rotor Chinooks, were always present, and that they maintained a distance of about 100 yards, surrounding (but not above) the object. He had the impression that they were escorting it, or perhaps that they were there to deal with the threat of the object (liberally paraphrasing).

Looking at Mugshots

After the show, I asked Colby to look at a collection of images based on the UFO, “mugshots,” to find the closest match.

"Those look close, I can still see it very vividly in my mind." He selected this one and commented:
“I would say the MUFON Symposium (drawing) would be the best one if color was added and (the object was) moved above the trees about 100 feet in contrast. Chinook helicopters added in, and it would look almost what I remember.”

Kathy Schuessler sketch from 1981.

I then asked him to look at Chris Lambright’s illustration based on his 1985 interviews with Vickie Landrum and Betty Cash.

Colby said:
“That actually sent chills. If he could add in some helicopters, it would be perfect, but that's good.”

Chris Lambright illustration based on his interviews with Vickie and Betty.

A better understanding of this object will aid in its identification if it was a military vehicle or weapons test of some kind. Colby's contribution is an excellent step forward in establishing the best possible description of the UFO.

The Family Business

Colby has expressed the desire to pick up where his grandmother Vickie left off, to try to get answers about what they encountered. I’m talking with him about ways to do this, emphasizing that any investigation will carry more weight with his involvement. But first, it is crucial to review the case and verify the existing details. To that end, Colby has some documents and photographs that may contain information not included in the public record, and examining them may provide some leads, or possibly new evidence. 

I’m extremely grateful to Martin for giving Colby the push he needed to start working on a solution. Colby told me afterwards, "I hope we can get this rolling. I have a good feeling about this." 

Anything learned about this mystery will serve as a valuable tool which can be applied to other UFO cases, particularly those involving military operations. 

Cash-Landrum Witness, Colby Landrum: 2013 Interview

A Rare Interview with Colby Landrum, December 4, 2013

Colby Landrum, from 1982 and 2008

Martin Willis has been hosting a UFO interview program, Podcast UFO, and he's got a refreshing approach to things. Basically, he's a skeptic that had his mind opened when he experienced a UFO sighting of his own. In a relatively short time, Martin has featured interviews with many of the top names in the field, including reclusive witnesses to famous cases such as Calvin Parker of the 1973 Pascagoula Abduction Incident.

On December 4th, Martin featured a live interview with Cash-Landrum witness, Colby Landrum. Silent since the mid-80s, Landrum has only broken his silence on the case for one television program. This live interview provided much more intimate access and allowed listeners to to hear Colby Landrum tell the story as he remembers it, followed by questions from researchers familiar with the case.

In 1985, Chris Lambright managed a rare feat by an independent UFO researcher, he was able to interview Vickie Landrum in person, and Betty Cash by telephone. The Podcast UFO program allow him the long-delayed completion to his goal to interview all three case witnesses. Also joining the  show, was yours truly, Curt Collins.

Colby Landrum Interview

Wednesday, December 4th 2013 at 8PM Eastern (Streamed Live)

Art Bell’s Dark Matter Radio Network 

Archived as a podcast starting Friday, Dec. 7 at 

PodcastUFO.com, iTunes and Stitcher 

AUDIO Link: Recorded Live- Podcast UFO Interview with Colby Landrum

or

YouTube version

The Podcast UFO Press Release on the interview:

Podcast UFO Celebrates Joining Art Bell's Network with Special Guest

Podcast UFO, new to Art Bell’s Dark Matters online network, will present a rare interview with Cash-Landrum UFO Incident witness Colby Landrum.

Exciting changes are coming to Podcast UFO, a favorite interview show for everyone interested in the field of UFOlogy. First of all, host Martin Willis is thrilled to announce that the show will premiere on Art Bell’s Dark Matter Radio Network on Wednesday, December 4th 2013 at 8PM Eastern. The show will still be available as a podcast via iTunes and Stitcher every Friday, but very soon the Wednesday shows will be live with listener call in and “wormhole messaging” capabilities. Podcast versions of the show will also be available on PodcastUFO.com each Friday. The website will also continue to host the show’s blogs and forums. Host Martin Willis said “It is such an honor to be associated with broadcasting legend Art Bell. We are proud and pleased to be one of the first shows selected to be part of his Dark Matters Radio Network.”

The premiere episode is a pre-taped interview on Crop Circle Science with Nancy Talbott. The following week will feature an extremely rare interview with Cash-Landrum UFO Incident witness Colby Landrum. Researchers Chris Lambright and Curtis Collins will be joining Martin for this extraordinary episode. It very well may be the only opportunity listeners have to hear Colby Landrum speak about the famous 1980 Texas UFO encounter which left the participants with strange symptoms consistent with radiation exposure.

In another exciting development for Podcast UFO, esteemed Illinois based UFO researcher Sam Maranto will be joining the live broadcasts. He will bring his expert analysis and wide ranging knowledge of the topic to Podcast UFO. Maranto is best known for his investigations of the 2004 Tinley Park UFO sightings near Chicago, Illinois.

About Podcast UFO:

Podcast UFO is a weekly audio podcast that brings listeners news and interviews related to unidentified flying saucers and the search for alien intelligence. Each show features in-depth conversation with today’s most important and interesting UFO researchers, skeptics and experiencers. Produced and hosted by veteran podcaster Martin Willis and co-hosted by MUFON investigator Sam Maranto, the show can be streamed through the Dark Matters Radio Network at: darkmatterradio.net where new episodes appear each Wednesday at 8PM Eastern (Thursday at 1AM UTC/GMT). Podcasts versions of the show can still be subscribed to via iTunes & Stitcher for your smart phone.. Podcast UFO can be contacted at martin@podcastufo.com.

The Podcast UFO official website is PodcastUFO.com

Update: More Details from UFO Witness Colby Landrum